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Tempo variation is a key element in music that moves "con moto". One has to differentiate intentional vs unintentional tempo variation, poor timing vs soulful phrasing etc. Is the guy late to the beat because he can't read ahead fast enough, or can't spit it out on time, or is he holding back a galloping band? Swing tempo, like in punctuated eights or triplets, come in different degrees, i. This degree of swing is negotiated during a live session. Miles Davis was a Jazz musician remembered for his music legacy. There was no crap coming out of his trumpet.

It's expanded to be 'Time Feel - how to use it and abuse it but never lose it. Not even close. When doing tuplets and odd note groupings IMO there is more responsibility to nail a Downbeat ,or Downbeats not necessarily the 1 - AND not necessarily end the phrase on a downbeat. Just that accenting and syncing to the Downbeats , not every Downbeat possibly not every Bar but often - because even though referencing Upbeats [ love it for syncopated Rhythm Parts , and 'wilder 'lines with wide interval skips higher notes on upbeats ] is a useful tool Nailing accenting Downbeats often let's everybody know you are 'in time ' even non Musician listeners feel it usually.

Especially IMO after fast stuff , tuplets, odd note groupings etc accenting Downbeats both dynamically and sometimes with longer note values keeps it all uncluttered and clear But that's a specialized thing. Time feel - useless term really. Conflates two separate things that can almost be in opposition to each other sometimes. Talking about lag. Perception of it and the empirical reality Originally Posted by christianm Soloists , Vocalists can be late and sound really good.

Guitar Buddy - yes! I was mostly speaking of Tyner's rolling thunder pulsing in the Rhythm Sections -his soloing is obvious but I would love to get a little of Tyner's vibe in my semi fingerpicked Rhythms. Christian - I will check those guys out in the specific tunes - then re-read your Post here. Anything of Wes playing a slow swing or a three Full House is another good one.

This paper explains some of the observations discussed in this thread. In this study, the swing ratio produced by drummers on the ride cymbal was measured. Three well known jazz recordings and a play-along record were used. At slow tempi, the swing ratio was as high as 3. The absolute duration of the short note in the long-short pattern was constant at about ms for medium to fast tempi, suggesting a practical limit on tone duration that may be due to perceptual factors.

In slow tempi, the soloists were mostly playing their downbeats after the cymbal but were synchronized with the cymbal at the off-beats. This implied that the swing ratio of the soloist was considerably smaller than the cymbal accompaniment in slow tempi. I think what this thread is about which is a reflection of the times we live in rather than what Miles Davis may have expressed in an interview back in the 80s ; Jazz musicians challenged by computers, DAWs, sequencers, drum machines and clicks. Why is my timing in the part I just recorded so poor?

The problem has many layers; The representation of the data must be a valid model and the gear must be smart enough and powerful enough to execute it. Still the computer cannot be in the pocket. I have to have the knowhow, how to make it swing and it's a time consuming task, far from the beauty of playing in a band making magic together. The first problem is that Jazz notation is an approximation. Written straight eights are seldom supposed to be played straight.

The second problem is the computer clock static tempo, creating an artificial, lifeless representation. Solution: I have to learn how to use the DAW to make tempo variations. The third problem is software and hardware latency, meaning that what I hear when recording is not what I get. I remember my first home computer recordings; I was shocked by my poor timing and forced myself to play ahead of the beat The examples above may also explain why pop music over the last 20 years hasn't changed much and why the foundation of contemporary pop is some static pre-programmed beat in some software plug.

Jazz is playing together, vibing together, getting into the groove together, negotiating tempo and swing ratio during a live session. It's a bit too organic for the computer to cope with. Jazz is best experienced in the absence of computers. Jazz is a living thing. Originally Posted by JCat. What I think this thread is about which is a reflection of the times we live in rather than what Miles Davis possibly expressed in an interview back in the 80s are Jazz musicians challenged by computers, DAWs, sequencers, drum machines and clicks. Lovely story, Be careful with that samba rhythm, It's sticky, hard to shake it off.

One more thing that just struck me; about the time when Miles makes his statement, the click track was the plague. Everyone was supposed to play with click in-ears. A drummer that couldn't follow the click track, was suddenly out of work. Guys that used to be pacers became slaves under the click.

I saw Miles in a sparkling red space suit, a red horn and shades looking like goggles, together with his band on stage in the mid 80s. Steinbergers and Digital synthesizers. At that point he had left "Kind of Blue" far behind. Jazz seems to be set up for a lot of open space and flexibility regarding time feel though I don't claim to be knowledgeable enough on Jazz to make this call. My ability to play tight is not from knowledge it's feel and ' sync'.

But I think many will agree for example on harmonic rhythm pulse Music - even Bossa - there are strict limits on how late you can be on the Rhythm Guitar Jobim type Bossa Rhythm - not so much on the Solos.. Then one step further or backwards because these Rhythms may put you in a 'straight jacket ' trapped However I can play a bit behind as long as I hit major downbeats frequently Do you Guys here it this way?

The wiggle room depends on the tempo and the beat. Looser, right? Yeah - love that Vocalist too. They have Midi production with live stuff I mean if you need MIDI production And LC is a true master -agreed. He has done so many epic Solos and can expand Blues to eloquent but still has that raw emotion and Plays so cool over everything I like that Track a lot. One of the most expressive Guitarists ever.. I had this super long Post But you have touched upon a very good point Jcat.

Jazz Rhythms are easy rhythmically. So instead of talking about Barry Harris - great educator though he may be - not the Funkiest Player or Harmonic Rhythmatist or even close - lol. So take your single lines and play over Higher Ground Even cooler and I did not learn from doing this - but just did it gradually - IF you fingerpick or play a little Classical or Pick and fingers etc.. And if you fingerpick over these Rhythms it's very enlightening It's' real '. The time adjustment needed is 'real' to Sync. I am fusing these at Basic Levels rather than copying or deciphering people who can't play it and I am not a copier type learner - I learned long before Internet The time adjustment needed is 'real'.

However I should not be too cocky about this because I have greatly benefitted from being exposed to and helped by the Jazz Theorists and actual use practical stuff from you Guys Thanks for posting. He is killer at this Sounds good, feels good and super funky. I once hired a Singer just a Commercial who had just worked with Purdie and was raving about him - he was already famous in the 70's. I am quite close in time feel to the Killer B's.. I do it instinctively by ear now which is cool I really liked the Purdie clip though.

Join Date Dec Location W. Canada Posts I saw him in about ' On the Corner arrived soon after. The band I was playing with at the time was interested in exploring that. I remember telling the drummer and bassist they weren't getting it. They needed to play more stiff. More like a machine. Long before click track. The tablas swing in spots and in others just about as on the beat as it gets. Zakir Hussain sat in with us once. No tabla available. He played mostly quarter notes squarely on the f'in beat on high conga.

Maybe he figured we needed some help. He's an awesome drummer. Miles' comment from the interview in question. This is all the context that even the full interview offered Playing "fat notes" seems to suggest the image of a score with graphically larger note heads with respect to their stems and flags, as if their individual initiation attacks were represented as variable in the time domain, extended about their absolute beat centers.

I think this is similar to the idea of "beat width", which describes the variance around the absolute beat center within which a skilled player may place and articulate his notes and still sound rhythmically good. A player's beat width is a personal measure developed through time and experience, comprised of many micro-techniques generally below their level of conscious execution.

There's that saxophone bloke on the internet who suggests short notes are preferred for notes on the upbeats. I'll track down the link, it was posted here yonks ago. Like all these sweeping statements I'm sure it's not generally true, but it seems often the case. Actually, what would that section be called, formally? So, how do we start this new section for once and for all.

Rhythm and time don't fall into the sections we already have. Actually, everything we discuss should ultimately trace back to time, rhythm, and "feel". Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar. What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping.

Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. What did I learn from him? What you can do with an electric guitar. I moved to L. It was unbelievable.

It was everything: It was psychedelic, it was funk, it was blues, it was rock. His song-writing ability was amazing, his leads were genius — he was so far ahead of his time. When I started understanding guitar more, I realized that Hendrix was so far above the level that a lot of other guitar players were at. Then in , I went to one of my first rock concerts. The first thing I did when I got home — I was thirteen or fourteen — was go out and buy a Hendrix album. And that got me to play guitar.

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His music was so visual. When he played a song and wanted sea-gull sounds in it, he would get those sounds. If he wanted his guitar to sound like it was underwater, he could do that. Hendrix had a way of saying something political without speaking outside his own musical language. He said it in sonic terms. And his guitar tone is something he completely invented.

There is no one who sounded like him, before or after. He invented the Church of Tone. He had monster tone, monster technique, monster songs. And soul to spare. I think he played with the Blue Caps for less than a year, but he made such an impact. But Cliff would build them up. He would use a flat pick and three-finger picks, like a banjo player. I was down in Virginia about six years ago, and I set it up to meet him. It was beautiful, effortless, and his timing was perfection. He is rhythm man supreme. Later I realized why he played that way — because of the sheer physical size of the guy.

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I mean, he makes one of those big Gibsons look like a ukulele! Everybody has to adapt their own physical possibilities to the instrument. Some guys have tiny little hands that can zip all over the thing.

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He got harmonies down so that every note has another note behind it, which gives it that really strong, broad sound. Especially when you add it to the songwriting and the singing and everything else. I mean, the shape alone. I sleep with the thing sometimes. Melissa Etheridge Keith Richards was really my largest influence, because he plays with such a rhythm style. When I was a teenager and started playing in front of people with just my guitar, I was influenced by Joni Mitchell or Joan Baez , this kind of fingering-guitar thing.

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So I played the guitar like it was a band. I also thought that Kurt Cobain was just a great guitar player. Once again, it was the rhythmic issue. Because Nirvana were just a three-piece, he had to hold everything together, and he had such an amazing range. Bruce Springsteen. Hearing that record at the end of the Seventies was just such a throw-down to me. The electric guitar had really become such an unoriginal-sounding instrument. Marquee Moon is a very uncomplicated record sonically.

No pyrotechnics, no histrionics, no trickery. Verlaine got a lot of the credit for putting it together, but in pure guitar-playing terms, I think Lloyd did some of the finest work on that record. It gave their work a stark, beautiful quality. And, of course, because no one is used to hearing that scale, it sounded completely original and fresh.

I strive for that kind of energy, to be so galvanizing. I learned from him in terms of having the sound come from more places than just your fingers. And I do strive for that kind of energy, to be so galvanizing. He wrote deceptively simple guitar lines; they were full of so many angles and chord changes. I listened to it unceasingly for a month. I could not figure out how these people were making music that just seemed so weird, this perfect combination of crazy voice, great female vocals and all these great, exciting guitar lines.

King and Jimmie Vaughan. So many contemporary guitar players have the same list: B. The blues list.

musing on Miles & groove

My favorite songs by them are B. Those two songs qualify as the definitive work. Jeff Beck The one that stands out above all else is Django Reinhardt. When I played the tape on the tour bus, everybody gathered around the speakers. This is forty years old.

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Nobody really knows why. Among all the screaming and the shouting, you can hear this guitar. It sounds like someone was being impaled on a spit.

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Anyone with an affinity for rockabilly will know that there was never anybody so explicit in their guitar playing. This is quadruple-X-rated guitar playing. Django reinhardt was the best there ever was. His technique, his playing ability and his tone were all incredible. A friend of mine, Johnny Gimble, who plays fiddle, was a big fan of his — and also Stephane Grappelli, who played fiddle in the Django Reinhardt band — and he gave me a tape of Django and Stephane playing together.

Eddie Van Halen I think the whole guitar-god thing is funny. How about just a guitar player? As I started buying records, it was stuff like Hendrix and Cream. Every solo he did back then you can hum. We had a stereophonic Zenith, and I would turn it to sixteen so it would be half-speed, and I really got into learning note for note all the live stuff.

But it takes a lot of work to play. Sometimes I think they brought the same thing by traveling different roads. The biggest thing I learned was from Jerry. He taught me subtlety, the emotional power of a quiet phrase. I saw a Dead show at the Hartford [Connecticut] Civic Center in that was a life-changing event for me. I had seen them before but was too busy talking to people and not getting into it. But at this show, I went off by myself. It completely changed my perception of what was possible. The entire time, I was completely tuned in to what Jerry was playing.

The whole thing had a logical form to it, and it was just heart-wrenchingly beautiful. I think Loveless is the defining album of the Nineties as far as sound goes. That record was the Number One choice for me and Fish, our drummer, to cover at the last Halloween show. I had the whole thing figured out: I wanted to have five amps all lined up, with a slight delay between each one so it sounded like there were five different sounds coming out of it. But Fish and I got outvoted, so we did Loaded instead.

Maybe next year. Kim Thayil Soundgarden Jeff Beck always comes to mind. He was confident. The first time I was aware of Beck was probably Wired. There were no vocals; it was more electric and neonlike. Wired sounded incredibly contemporary but also sort of futuristic to me. As far as Nineties guitarists go, I have a lot of respect for Tom Morello , not just for how he plays but also for his head. There should be more people who are that aware and accountable. I was reading that the synthesizer and the electric guitar are still the most modern instruments.

And the electric guitar still beats up the synthesizer because synthesizers are trying to sound like guitars. You know? Beck For me, the guitar is usually a percussive instrument. Mance Lipscomb is one of my favorites. His voice and his guitar are so perfectly melded; they both have this graceful awkwardness. The way he plays guitar sounds like a horse and carriage.

It has that atmosphere and that ricketiness. Being limited to what you can play on the guitar is often a good thing. That understatement can be so powerful. Sometimes arthritis can be more effective than a hammer-on. They capture with their sound and their expression, as compared to all the people who can just go up and down on the scales and you feel nothing. My brother put me up on Santana when he came back from college. I think he was watching Woodstock. You know, college, not much to do, chilling with the herbal.

And then here comes Carlos Santana. I think everyone is scared to play today. What happened to the fifteen-minute guitar solo? People used to live for it, man! The last cat that gave me a vibe was Kurt Cobain. He was ill with the power chords. Vernon Reid Carlos Santana is the first time I heard rock guitar where I really paid attention to it.

His sound is incredibly vocal. And Carlos gets to that with his guitar. My other favorite guitarist is Arthur Rhames.

He had this incredible combination of technique and reckless passion. I used to go see him play in Prospect Park [in Brooklyn]. Looking at him and listening to him was weird — this was a guitar player from our neighborhood who played at least as much guitar as John McLaughlin. And he was playing at furious tempos, furiously fast. He had a certain kind of phrasing that I got from him. He was an unbelievable musician — the greatest guitarist you never heard. He bent the neck; he bent the strings behind the bridge. He played with both hands on the fingerboard. He used every ornament on the thing to get a noise out of it.

It was like the guitar came to life. I had so many questions for him. The next night, we were playing — Roy was doing this gunslinger thing on me and he became the wolf.

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Finally, Ronnie Hawkins came to the conclusion that Roy was too weird and spooky to deal with. Because Roy was such a complicated person, he never played with anybody where he could be shown in his proper light. I was in the front row, between where Johnny Thunders and David Johansen were standing. It was sensory assault on every level.

That was right when I was becoming a rock fan, coming into being a teenager and getting turned on to music. Once I saw that, there was no question what I wanted to pursue. Initially, I learned to play guitar from records — T. I focused on the way the rhythm guitar sounds, the way it feels against the drums — it moves you the way the bass or drums do.

I was totally unconcerned with the lead guitar. Peter Buck R. If your guitar was in tune, the songs were easy enough to play along with. Roger McGuinn took a lot of things that I never personally studied — finger picking, old Hamilton Camp records — and translated them into a rock idiom. It sounds like a harpsichord. Eric Erlandson Hole I have a melting pot of guitar influences. But Johnny Thunders was the first one where I started going back to his records and trying to figure out this amazing fucked-up guitar playing.

I still think a lot of Celebrity Skin is my Johnny Thunders influence coming up — which Courtney just fucking hates [ laughs ]. Johnny was sloppy, but in a cool way. I was working at a record store in the early Eighties and I had a friend who was obsessed with Johnny.

Johnny had a certain style of rhythm. I saw him several times throughout the Eighties, and sometimes he would play just one note. But there would be something about that one note. It was so unschooled. There would be no Steve Jones [of the Sex Pistols] without him.